+++++
[Including the 'other' Heraclitus group?]
+++++
Message 36
From:  "Philip Talbot <philtal_uk@y...>" <philtal_uk@y...>
Date:  Tue Dec 31, 2002  11:01 am
Subject:  ... repetitions ...
Repetition is a Form of Change philtal_uk
(38/M/Tyneside,UK) 1/9/02 7:48 pm
You can't read the same message twice - you change, it changes.
You cannot read the same message twice - you change, it changes.
Aristotle, Rhetoric.
'It is difficult to punctuate Heraclitus's writing because it is
unclear whether a word goes with what follows it or with what goes
before it. Eg, at the very beginning of his treatise, he says:
"of this account which holds forever men prove uncomprehending".
It is unclear what "forever" goes with.'
the same is present living and dead awake and asleep young and old
for the latter change and are the former and the former change and
are the latter
disconnections combinations wholes and not wholes concurring
differing concordant discordant from all things one and from one all
things
changing it rests and resting it changes
we step and do not step into the same rivers
we are and we are not
It is wise to listen, not to me, but to the words. The words
say: 'All things are one.'
Although the words stay the same, they seem to change.
Though the words stay the same, they seem to change.
New Member philtal_uk
(38/M/Tyneside,UK) 1/9/02 8:27 pm
Hello ... pleased to meet you all - albeit marginally ... in a place
on the edge of things that have no end and which is central and
marginal and everywhere between at the same time and ...
Love Philip.
The Society of Heraclitus philtal_uk
(38/M/Tyneside,UK) 1/9/02 8:36 pm
Although separated and virtual strangers, we walk and talk together
and blend in thoughts, emotions and feelings and find missing parts
in others and giving missing parts to others and we take upon us,
together and alone, the mystery of things - all things strange
familiar simple complex mixed singular high low bitter sweet
sorrowful joyful ... and although it can seem like meaningless
nonsense it does eventually resolve itself into a sort of sense.
Does it make a difference ...? philtal_uk
(38/M/Tyneside,UK) 1/12/02 10:06 am
Does it make a difference whether this message is read or not read?
The act of writing it has brought some difference
(change)to the universe - and who can say what consequences that will
have? (Tiny, trivial seeming acts can [perhaps occasionally, perhaps
often, perhaps always] have wide-ranging consequences.)
Readings would further complicate matters - and responses even more
so.
Plotinus on Heraclitus philtal_uk
(38/M/Tyneside,UK) 1/19/02 9:07 am
Plotinus [Enneads]:
Heraclitus who, by example, urges us to inquire into limitless
matters, posits necessary exchanges from opposites and talks of paths
up and down and around and
"changing it rests"
and
"it is weariness for the same to labour freely and to be ruled"
and he leaves us to conjecture and omits to make his argument clear
and to reach conclusions, perhaps because he realised that we should
inquire for ourselves as he himself inquired
Reality is complex, messy, not clear-cut.
So the way(s) into greater understanding of it cannot be simple,
tidy, unambiguous.
Heraclitus rambles through the borderlands between coherence and
incoherence.
Strange stuff emerges from that marginal zone.
Lifting the veil ... opening the doors of perception ... and all that.
It can be done - and doesn't require drugs.
But it is (perhaps) a mistake to imagine that what is revealed when
the veil is lifted is more real than what is perceptible when it is
still in place.
Reality is (most likely) multi-layered - all in all.
No level of reality is likely to be more real than any other
... and when you think you've got it sussed, then is the time for
caution ... scepticism ... humility ... that way you go on
learning ... or developing ... or just changing ...
Of reality we know nothing firmly ... it changes.
It seems unwise to speculate at random about the widest matters. But
what esle can we do?
Ramble.
(1) Wander disconnectedly in discourse, talk, writing.
(2) Walk for pleasure and with pleasure, with or without a definite
route, and with or without a clear destination
Flame and Vortex.
Both flame and vortex are example of dissipative structures - the
maintenance of which require a continuous input of energy, and the
effect of which is to dissipate that energy.
In a vortex, the energy is the potential engery of the water, which
is dissipated as the water falls.
In a flame, the energy from chemical reactions is dissipated as heat.
As soon as the energy stops, the form disappear.
Shifting sands. Seething seas. Swirling skies.
Sea sounds. Synaesthesia. See sounds.
Of reality we know nothing firmly.
It changes.
... changing waterways churn on while I ramble on ...
The Society of Heraclitus philtal_uk
(38/M/Tyneside,UK) 1/9/02 8:36 pm
Although separated and virtual strangers, we walk and talk together
and blend in thoughts, emotions and feelings and find missing parts
in others and giving missing parts to others and we take upon us,
together and alone, the mystery of things - all things strange
familiar simple complex mixed singular high low bitter sweet
sorrowful joyful ... and although it can seem like meaningless
nonsense it does eventually resolve itself into a sort of sense.
Re: The Society of Heraclitus philtal_uk
(38/M/Tyneside,UK) 1/19/02 9:45 am
With few exceptions (perhaps none), every person experiences
conscience, self-respect, remorse, empathy, shame, humility, moral
outrage, etc - to varying degrees, at various times and places.
Out of this grows what seems to be a worldwide morality, including
notions of altruism, justice, compassion, mercy ... even redemption.
Unfortunately, small-scale personal familiarities, and a limited
sense of common interest, narrow the range of moral sentiments -
making them selective: applied to 'us' but not to 'them'.
People give trust to strangers only with great effort.
True compassion, applied to all humans (recognised as fully human -
and of 'us'), is in short supply.
Re: The Society of Heraclitus philtal_uk
(38/M/Tyneside,UK) 1/19/02 9:52 am
... meeting as an anonymous strangers in lonely crowds ... throwing
love around ... and it changes ... and perhaps it grows ... and
perhaps it blooms ... tomorrow ... or tomorrow ... or tomorrow ...
Leonardo's Heraclitean Vision philtal_uk
(38/M/Tyneside,UK) 2/2/02 9:29 am
Leonardo: 'Everything proceeds from everything else and everything
becomes everything else and everything can be turned into everything
else.'
[If you look for long enough, everything might be seen in a young
woman's smile ... or an old man's frown.]
Re: Leonardo's Heraclitean Vision philtal_uk
(38/M/Tyneside,UK) 2/6/02 7:29 am
Leonardo:
The artist can call into being the essences of animals of all kinds,
of plants, fruits, landscapes, rolling plains, crumbling mountains,
fearful and terrible places which strike terror into the spectator;
and again pleasant places, sweet and delightful with meadows of many-
coloured flowers bent by the gentle motion of the wind, which turns
back to look at them as it floats on; and then rivers falling from
high mountains and the force of great floods, ruins which drive down
with them up-rooted plants mixed with rocks, roots, earth, and foam
and wash away to its ruins all that comes in their path; and then the
stormy sea, striving and wrestling with the winds which fight against
it, raising itself up in superb waves, which fall in ruins as the
wind strikes at their roots.
Message 37
From:  "Philip Talbot <philtal_uk@y...>" <philtal_uk@y...>
Date:  Tue Dec 31, 2002  11:04 am
Subject:  ...a difficult person ...
From: "Philip Talbot" <philtal_uk@y...>
Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:20 pm
Subject: A Difficult Person …
A Difficult Person …
`… Heraclitus, son of Bloson (or, some say, of Heracon), was from
Ephesus. He flourished in the 69th Olympiad [504/501 BC]. He was
uncommonly arrogant and contemptuous, as is clear from his treatise,
in which he says:
"Much learning does not teach sense – otherwise it would have taught
Hesiod and Pythagoras, and again Xenophanes and Hecataeus."
For he says the wise is one, grasping the knowledge how all things
are steered through all. And he said that Homer deserved to be thrown
out of the games and flogged – and Archilochus too. He also said:
"You should quench violence more quickly than arson."
And:
"The people should fight for the law as for the city wall."
He assailed the Ephesians for expelling his friend Hermodorus:
"The Ephesians deserve to be hanged to the last man, every one of
them: they should leave the city to the young. for they expelled
Hermodorus, the best among them, saying: `Let no one of us be best:
if there is such a man, let him be elsewhere and with others.'"
When they asked Heraclitus to write laws, he refused on the ground
that the city had already been mastered by a wicked constitution. He
retired to the temple of Artemis and played dice with children. When
the Ephesians stood round him, he said: "
"Why are you staring? Isn't it better to do this than to play
politics with you?"
In the end he became a misanthrope, leaving the city and living in
the mountains where he fed on plants and herbs. Because of this he
contracted dropsy and returned to the town. He asked the doctors in
his riddling fashion if they could change a rainstorm into a drought.
When they failed to understand him, he buried himself in a byre,
hoping the dropsy would be vaporized by the heat of the dung. But he
met with no success even by this means and died at the age of sixty …
He was remarkable from an early age: as a young man, he used to say
that he knew nothing, and when he had become adult that he had
learned everything. He was no-one's pupil, but said that he had
inquired into himself and learned everything from himself. Sotion
reports that some say that he was a pupil of Xenophanes, and that
Aristo, in his book On Heraclitus, says that he was actually cured of
the dropsy and died of another disease. Hippobotus too says this.
The book of his which is in circulation is, as far as its general
tenor goes, on nature; but it is divided into three accounts – one on
the universe, one political, one theological. He deposited it in the
temple of Artemis (having, as some say, written it somewhat
unclearly) in order that the powerful should have access to it and it
should not easily be despised by the people. Timon gives a sketch of
him as follows:
"Among them Heraclitus the mocker, the reviler of the mob,
the riddler, rose up."
Theophrastus says that because of his impulsive temperament he wrote
some things in a half-finished style and others in different ways at
different times. As a sign of his arrogance, Antisthenes says in his
Successions that he resigned from the kingship in favour of his
brother. His treatise gained such a high reputation that it actually
produced disciples, the so-called Heracliteans.
His views, in general were the following. All things are constituted
from fire and resolved into fire. All things come about in accordance
with fate, and the things that exist are fitted together by the
transformation of opposites. All things are full of souls and
spirits. He spoke also about all the events that occur in the world,
and he said that the sun is the size is appears. He also said:
"If you travel every path you will not find the limits of the soul,
so deep is its account."
He said that conceit is a sort of madness, and that sight is
fallacious. Sometimes in his treatise he expresses himself
brilliantly and clearly, so that even the more stupid easily
understand him and gain an enlargement of soul; and the brevity and
weight of his style are incomparable.
In detail, his doctrines are these. Fire is an element, and all
things are an exchange for fire, coming about by rarefaction and
condensation. (But he expresses nothing clearly.) All things come
about through opposition, and the universe flows like a river. The
universe is finite, and there is one world. It is generated from fire
and it is consumed in fire again, alternating in fixed periods
throughout the whole of time. And this happens by fate.
Of the opposites, that which leads to generation is called war and
strife, and that which leads to conflagration is called agreement and
peace. The change is a path up and down, and the world is generated
in accordance with it. for fire as it condensed becomes moist, and
as it coheres becomes water; water as it solidifies turns into earth –
this is the path downwards. Then again the earth dissolves, and
water comes into being from it, and everything else from water (he
refers pretty well everything to the exhalation given off by the
sea) – this is the path upwards.
Exhalations are given off by the earth and by the sea, some of them
bright and pure, others dark. Fire is increased by the bright
exhalations, moisture by the others. He does not indicate what the
surrounding heaven is like. But there are bowls in it, their hollow
side turned towards us. The bright exhalations gather in them and
produce flames, and these are the heavenly bodies. The flame of the
sun is the brightest and hottest. for the other heavenly bodies are
further away from the earth and for that reason give less light and
heat, while the moon, though it is nearer the earth, does not travel
through a pure region. The sun, however, lies in a translucent and
uncontaminated region, and it preserves a proportionate distance from
us; that is why it gives more heat and light. The sun and moon are
eclipsed when the bowls turn upwards. The moon's monthly changes of
shpae come about as its bowl gradually turns. Day and night, the
months and season and years, rains and winds and the like, come about
in virtue of the different exhalations. for the bright exhalation,
when it bursts into flame in the circle of the sun, makes day, and
the opposite exhalation, when it has gained power, produces night. As
the heat from the brightness increases it makes summer, and as the
moisture from the darkness mounts up it effects winter.
He gives explanations of the other phenomena in the same way, but he
does not say anything about what the earth is like, nor even about
the bowls. Those were his views.
The story about Socrates, and what he said when he looked at
Heraclitus's treatise (having got it from Euripides, according to
Aristo), I have recounted in the Life of Socrates. Seleucus the
grammarian, however, says that Croton relates in his Diver that a
certain Crates first brought the book to Greece and that it was he
who said that it would take a Delian diver not to get drowned in it.
some entitle it Muses, others On Nature; Diodotus calls it:
A Certain Steerage to the Goal of Life
others call it Judgement, Manners, Turnings, One World for All …
Demetrius in his Homonyms says that he despised even the Athenians,
though he had the highest reputation among them, and that though he
swas scorned by the Ephesians he preferred what was familiar to him.
Demetrius of Phaleron mentions him too in his Apology of Scorates.
Very many people have offered interpretations of his treatise:
Antisthenes, Herclides of Pontus, Cleanthes, Sphaerus the Stoic,
Pausanias (who was called the Heraclitean), Nicomedes, Dionysius –
and of the grammarians, Diodotus, who says that the treatise is not
about nature but about politics and that the remarks on nature are
there by way of illustrations. Hieronymus says that Scythinus the
iambic poets attempted to put Heraclitus's account into verse. …'
[Diogenes Laertius, Lives of the Philosophers]

Message 38
From:  "Philip Talbot <philtal_uk@y...>" <philtal_uk@y...>
Date:  Tue Dec 31, 2002  11:06 am
Subject:  Re: ...a difficult person ...
--- In Heraclitus@yahoogroups.com, "Philip Talbot <philtal_uk@y...>"
<philtal_uk@y...> wrote:
> From: "Philip Talbot" <philtal_uk@y...>
> Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:20 pm
> Subject: A Difficult Person …
>
>
>
>
> A Difficult Person …
>
> `… Heraclitus, son of Bloson (or, some say, of Heracon), was from
> Ephesus. He flourished in the 69th Olympiad [504/501 BC]. He was
> uncommonly arrogant and contemptuous, as is clear from his
treatise,
> in which he says:
> "Much learning does not teach sense – otherwise it would have
taught
> Hesiod and Pythagoras, and again Xenophanes and Hecataeus."
> For he says the wise is one, grasping the knowledge how all things
> are steered through all. And he said that Homer deserved to be
thrown
> out of the games and flogged – and Archilochus too. He also said:
> "You should quench violence more quickly than arson."
> And:
> "The people should fight for the law as for the city wall."
> He assailed the Ephesians for expelling his friend Hermodorus:
> "The Ephesians deserve to be hanged to the last man, every one of
> them: they should leave the city to the young. for they expelled
> Hermodorus, the best among them, saying: `Let no one of us be best:
> if there is such a man, let him be elsewhere and with others.'"
> When they asked Heraclitus to write laws, he refused on the ground
> that the city had already been mastered by a wicked constitution.
He
> retired to the temple of Artemis and played dice with children.
When
> the Ephesians stood round him, he said: "
> "Why are you staring? Isn't it better to do this than to play
> politics with you?"
> In the end he became a misanthrope, leaving the city and living in
> the mountains where he fed on plants and herbs. Because of this he
> contracted dropsy and returned to the town. He asked the doctors in
> his riddling fashion if they could change a rainstorm into a
drought.
> When they failed to understand him, he buried himself in a byre,
> hoping the dropsy would be vaporized by the heat of the dung. But
he
> met with no success even by this means and died at the age of sixty
…
> He was remarkable from an early age: as a young man, he used to say
> that he knew nothing, and when he had become adult that he had
> learned everything. He was no-one's pupil, but said that he had
> inquired into himself and learned everything from himself. Sotion
> reports that some say that he was a pupil of Xenophanes, and that
> Aristo, in his book On Heraclitus, says that he was actually cured
of
> the dropsy and died of another disease. Hippobotus too says this.
> The book of his which is in circulation is, as far as its general
> tenor goes, on nature; but it is divided into three accounts – one
on
> the universe, one political, one theological. He deposited it in
the
> temple of Artemis (having, as some say, written it somewhat
> unclearly) in order that the powerful should have access to it and
it
> should not easily be despised by the people. Timon gives a sketch
of
> him as follows:
> "Among them Heraclitus the mocker, the reviler of the mob,
> the riddler, rose up."
> Theophrastus says that because of his impulsive temperament he
wrote
> some things in a half-finished style and others in different ways
at
> different times. As a sign of his arrogance, Antisthenes says in
his
> Successions that he resigned from the kingship in favour of his
> brother. His treatise gained such a high reputation that it
actually
> produced disciples, the so-called Heracliteans.
> His views, in general were the following. All things are
constituted
> from fire and resolved into fire. All things come about in
accordance
> with fate, and the things that exist are fitted together by the
> transformation of opposites. All things are full of souls and
> spirits. He spoke also about all the events that occur in the
world,
> and he said that the sun is the size is appears. He also said:
> "If you travel every path you will not find the limits of the soul,
> so deep is its account."
> He said that conceit is a sort of madness, and that sight is
> fallacious. Sometimes in his treatise he expresses himself
> brilliantly and clearly, so that even the more stupid easily
> understand him and gain an enlargement of soul; and the brevity and
> weight of his style are incomparable.
> In detail, his doctrines are these. Fire is an element, and all
> things are an exchange for fire, coming about by rarefaction and
> condensation. (But he expresses nothing clearly.) All things come
> about through opposition, and the universe flows like a river. The
> universe is finite, and there is one world. It is generated from
fire
> and it is consumed in fire again, alternating in fixed periods
> throughout the whole of time. And this happens by fate.
> Of the opposites, that which leads to generation is called war and
> strife, and that which leads to conflagration is called agreement
and
> peace. The change is a path up and down, and the world is generated
> in accordance with it. for fire as it condensed becomes moist, and
> as it coheres becomes water; water as it solidifies turns into
earth –
> this is the path downwards. Then again the earth dissolves, and
> water comes into being from it, and everything else from water (he
> refers pretty well everything to the exhalation given off by the
> sea) – this is the path upwards.
> Exhalations are given off by the earth and by the sea, some of them
> bright and pure, others dark. Fire is increased by the bright
> exhalations, moisture by the others. He does not indicate what the
> surrounding heaven is like. But there are bowls in it, their hollow
> side turned towards us. The bright exhalations gather in them and
> produce flames, and these are the heavenly bodies. The flame of the
> sun is the brightest and hottest. for the other heavenly bodies are
> further away from the earth and for that reason give less light and
> heat, while the moon, though it is nearer the earth, does not
travel
> through a pure region. The sun, however, lies in a translucent and
> uncontaminated region, and it preserves a proportionate distance
from
> us; that is why it gives more heat and light. The sun and moon are
> eclipsed when the bowls turn upwards. The moon's monthly changes of
> shpae come about as its bowl gradually turns. Day and night, the
> months and season and years, rains and winds and the like, come
about
> in virtue of the different exhalations. for the bright exhalation,
> when it bursts into flame in the circle of the sun, makes day, and
> the opposite exhalation, when it has gained power, produces night.
As
> the heat from the brightness increases it makes summer, and as the
> moisture from the darkness mounts up it effects winter.
> He gives explanations of the other phenomena in the same way, but
he
> does not say anything about what the earth is like, nor even about
> the bowls. Those were his views.
> The story about Socrates, and what he said when he looked at
> Heraclitus's treatise (having got it from Euripides, according to
> Aristo), I have recounted in the Life of Socrates. Seleucus the
> grammarian, however, says that Croton relates in his Diver that a
> certain Crates first brought the book to Greece and that it was he
> who said that it would take a Delian diver not to get drowned in
it.
> some entitle it Muses, others On Nature; Diodotus calls it:
> A Certain Steerage to the Goal of Life
> others call it Judgement, Manners, Turnings, One World for All …
> Demetrius in his Homonyms says that he despised even the Athenians,
> though he had the highest reputation among them, and that though he
> swas scorned by the Ephesians he preferred what was familiar to
him.
> Demetrius of Phaleron mentions him too in his Apology of Scorates.
> Very many people have offered interpretations of his treatise:
> Antisthenes, Herclides of Pontus, Cleanthes, Sphaerus the Stoic,
> Pausanias (who was called the Heraclitean), Nicomedes, Dionysius –
> and of the grammarians, Diodotus, who says that the treatise is not
> about nature but about politics and that the remarks on nature are
> there by way of illustrations. Hieronymus says that Scythinus the
> iambic poets attempted to put Heraclitus's account into verse. …'
> [Diogenes Laertius, Lives of the Philosophers]
Message 39
From:  "Philip Talbot <philtal_uk@y...>" <philtal_uk@y...>
Date:  Tue Dec 31, 2002  11:08 am
Subject:  ... suggestion ...
... visit ...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/heraclitussociety/?yguid=96690235
... for more on heraclitus ... etc ...
+++++
Message 225
From:  "Philip Talbot <philtal_uk@y...>" <philtal_uk@y...>
Date:  Tue Dec 17, 2002  3:40 pm
Subject:  Re: ... ongoing B-Grade stuff ...

ADVERTISEMENT
The history man carefully recorded the progress of the child in time
seeking the comfort of strangers on the famished road …
But that was perhaps another story, or set of tales, told not by
idiots but by earnest creative writing learners [but can you really
teach it?] on the road not to nowhere but to Norwich, or there or
there abouts …
Meanwhile …
The old-time townie Duval Quintessence [aka Henry Smalls, King of the
Dogs (and if the former co-creative does not step forward to claim
his prize soon, I'll plagiarize all his other characters too!)] …
started off for the east midlands … but changed courses … and headed
for Canterbury instead …
Where a funny punny tongue-gifted and even in some ways plummy [she
was often earthily spoken but was no dummy] sort of double whammy
eagerly awaited him … with a couple of other big memories … and some
timely words of advice …
Sometime fast and loose footsie player Pummy said all old
schoolmsishly: `Have your eyefills of the blue tits and other sweet
little tits … but don't forget the even bigger birdies … or your
Chaucer either…'
So … in case revisions are needed: …
The Miller's Tale is the one with mass appeal, complete with farts,
arses, red-hot pokers … and sundry other vitalizing matters …
And it features a poor scholar from the north, learned in the liberal
arts, but not without an expansive passion for figures, as well as a
great interest in stars and planets … and many other even less
worldly seeming things …
And of course other learned scholars, and other experts, were all
agreed: … the man was a crackpot …
+++++

Message 228
From:  "Philip Talbot <philtal_uk@y...>" <philtal_uk@y...>
Date:  Fri Dec 20, 2002  12:29 pm
Subject:  Re: ... ongoing B-Grade stuff ...
Gilbert White on the tortoise:
"Because we call this creature an abject reptil, we are too apt to
undervalue its abilities, and depreciate its powers of instinct. Ye
it is, as Mr Pope says ...
"much too wise to walk into a well"
and has so much discernment as not to fall down on haha, but to stop
and withdraw from the brink with the readiest precaustion.
Though he loves warm weather he avoids the hot sun, because his thick
shell, when once heated, would, as the poiet says of sold
armour, "scald with safety".'
...
R-complex, buried deep inside humanity, some say, as some sort of
eveolutionary relic, and blamed by some for our more 'reptilian'
behaviour.
But perhaps those making such generalizations [like so many who reach
what they believe to be natural conclusions] have not observed
reptiles and other aspects of nature closely enough.
It is a matter of fact that their are benign and gentle reptiles - as
well as merciless and harmful ones.
And reptiles tend to avoid humanity - we are perhaps a greater threat
to them than they are to us.
Maybe neither side recognizes the other by its true colours.
...
Chameleons are not turn-coats ... they 'simply' solve their disputes
by colour-code competitions of sorts ... which is not a bad way of
sorting things out when one considers it carefully ...
...
Problems occur, of course, when one side or another does not show up
for an anticipated meeting of compares and contrats ...
Then 'reptilian' bad faith / self-interest / self-service /etc is
suspected ... and with justification perhaps ...
...